Buyers Beware

YOU MAY BE BUYING AN OVERPRICED WHITE ELEPHANT

THERE IS A LOT TO READ HERE BUT I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU DO SO AS IT IS YOUR POCKET I AM TRYING TO SAVE.

TAKE NOTE: -  I HAVE NO BUSINESS, FORUM RELATED OR ANY OTHER ULTERIOR MOTIVE FOR WRITING THIS OTHER THAN AS A COMMUNITY SERVICE. TAKE A LOOK AT MY FEEDBACK AND YOU WILL SEE THAT I HAVE NEVER SOLD ANY CAR  PREVIA, ESTIMA OR OTHERWISE ON EBAY. I DO HOWEVER HAVE OVER 30 YEARS MECHANICAL EXPERIENCE, I CURRENTLY OWN A PREVIA AND HAVE WORKED ON NUMEROUS IMPORTS. ALL THE TECHNICAL INFORMATION BELOW IS BASED ON HANDS ON EXPERIENCE NOT SECOND HAND INFORMATION.

So here we go :-)

The MAJORITY of imported Estima/Lucida/Emina have a 2.2 Turbo diesel which is NOTORIOUS FOR CRACKED CYLINDER HEADS ------- VERY EXPENSIVE TO FIX IF YOU ARE NOT A MECHANIC (UP TO £2000, I kid you not!!!!) Toyota UK will not touch IMPORTS so you are at the mercy of a hand full of independents. Spend some time scanning Ebay and you will see how many of these turn up with overheating and cylinder head issues or are listed as just having had either the head gasket or cylinder head changed !!!!

The UK spec Previa only ever came as a 2.4 petrol and occasionally suffer blown head gaskets, (NOTE: this is NOWHERE near as common as cracked heads on the ESTIMA/EMINA/LUCIDA's). Rust on the underbody should be checked and are THIRSTY (17 - 26mpg) but well tuned can achieve 30mpg. Overall nice cars though, FAR MORE RELIABLE THAN THE DIESEL IMPORTS!!!!  and MUCH MUCH CHEAPER TO REPAIR!!!!! ++ SPARES READILY AVAILABLE!!! and Toyota UK always willing to work on them.

BE CAREFUL OF SELLERS LISTING AN ESTIMA AS A PREVIA !!!!!

PREVIA = GENUINE UK SPEC MODEL PETROL ONLY (also sold in America, Europe and in Australia as the Tarago)
ESTIMA/LUCIDA/EMINA = IMPORT VERSIONS USUALLY FITTED WITH 2.2 DIESEL ENGINE. (Only ever made for the Asian market)

What you should know is that there are 3 different members of the imported Estima family

1. The Estima - this is identified by having no other name on the vehicle and is fitted ONLY with a 2.4 petrol engine. This is the direct equivalent of the top of the range Previa GX.
2. The Estima Lucida and Estima Emina : These look similar to the Previa but are 110mm narrower, have different interiors and were built to get around various road tax regimes in Japan, one of which is related to the width of a vehicle. There is little difference between the two, the reason for the different names is because they were built by competing Toyota business units, one located in the North of Japan and one in the South. There are subtle variations in model features such as the J-Top which has a higher roof. Both came with a petrol or diesel option but 99.9999% of the ones being imported into the UK are diesel.

Also because Lucida and Emina are 110mm narrower than the Previa you should not let yourself be lead to believe that you can simply go and buy Previa parts and they will fit; some will some won't. Major exceptions are the front and rear windscreens, obviously the wider Previa windows will not fit so when someone throws a brick through your windscreen or you get a crack and fail MoT you may well find that when Autoglass (or whomever you use) comes to your house they will not be able to help you. You will then have to scour the scrapyards, buy the windscreen yourself and then still pay extra to have it fitted.....so much for having your insurance do it. This is just one example, others are the front/rear lights are completely different as to are the front and rear grills.

When considering the imports ignore statements such as "FRESH IMPORTS" or "Only one registered owner". These cars are OLD repeat OLD, they have been well used in Japan and most likely have had numerous owners over there. This is marketting BULLS**T so don't get suckered. What difference does it make when the car was imported in the UK, a 10 year old car is still 10 years old whether it arrived today or last week. It also amazes me how these guys take poetic license by listing the cars as having 0 previous owners........so where did the +-50,000 miles come from??????. Obviously what they mean is no previous UK owners but they don't state this and whilst I realise that most folk out there are not stupid you do get the few who are not able to put 2 and 2 together. I suppose they deserve to get conned. Also remember that just like the salt on the roads here in the UK, the salt accumulated on a car whilst waiting on the docks to be shipped and whilst on the ship do them no good. Whilst the car may have no visible rust when you buy it rest assured that the cancer will have started. You should also be aware that because the Japanese do not use salt on their roads the under-bodies of Japanese imports have no anti-corrosion coating. As such you will need to have this done in order to stave off premature rusting, add this to the cost of your vehicle.

An upfront summary of notes you should walk away with : -

1. The fuel consumption of the diesels is NOT good and varies little from that of the Petrol engines so don't believe wild figures of 40mpg, 35 is about the best you will get but the majority only get in the low to mid 20's. This is down to something called power to weight ratio. The 2.2 diesel engine is not really up to the task of lugging around a 2.5 ton body. The 3CT engine fitted to the Estima family was originally designed for the Corolla's, Camry's and Picnic's all of which are much smaller cars. One advantage of this engine is that you can run it on vegetable oil but weigh up the savings in fuel against the possible cost of a head repair.

2. As stated the diesel was NOT designed for the Estima's. It was designed for a front placement where it is under far less heat stresses than the mid placement of the Estima. This simple fact is by far the most likely reason for the cracked heads and this is further qualified by the fact that the same engine fitted to its originally intended vehicle does not suffer from cracked heads anywhere nearly as much.

3. It is interesting to note that the petrol engined Previa/Estima was sold to the whole of Europe, America, Asia and Australia. However the diesel engine variants were ONLY found in ASIA primarily Japan. Why do you suppose countries like America, England and Australia all of whom have a rich history in vehicle production and racing chose NOT to use the diesel engine even when there was a big drive in the early 90's for diesel powered vehicles. Just perhaps they knew something back then.......hmmmm??

4. The Petrol engine however was 100% from the start designed solely for the Previa/Estima and this is reflected by its extremely good reliability record. It is used in NO other car.

5. When you buy an import be it an Estima or other make you will end up paying more for insurance. This is a simple fact which you can verify for yourself. Choose a number plate from both an import and a local equivalent and go do an online insurance quote and see what happens.

6. There is NO repeat NO official workshop manual available for the Estima's. Everything that is sold on Ebay is based on tutorials done by other Estima owners. Whilst there work is highly commendable it is certainly NO substitute for a decent workshop manual which you will find when something goes wrong. The same goes for most of the Japanese imports.

7. Whilst there appears to be availability of "cheap" (between £250 - £400) cylinder heads for the diesel engines you should be aware that many of these are cheap chinese copies and most who have tried them have found they last a few months at best. An original Toyota head or Toyota rebuilt head is the best option if you intend to keep the vehicle.

Having said all that many (but certainly NOT all) of the Imports are cleaner and in far better external condition than a great many of the UK manufactured Previa's I have seen. The Japs certainly know how to look after their cars. BUT and it is a BIG BUT, the outward appearance is NO guarantee of the mechanical condition of the engine which is the heart of the car and most expensive part to fix. DO NOT believe that because a car is "claimed" to only have a low mileage that the engine is in good nick. I have stated it before, will state it here and will state it again further down, the DIESEL engine have an inherent design FLAW, and no matter what you do at some point the cylinder head WILL MOST LIKELY CRACK. So to try analyse if the vehicle you are looking may already be showing the signs of a head problem read on. The info that follows is applicable to Diesel and Petrol engines.



Before you buy read carefully between the lines of what the seller has written. Anything like

Overheated slightly
Gets a little warm
Has a slight water leak
Have only had it a few months great car  (Yeah so why the **** are you selling it????)
Has a little white smoke when starting - but soon clears
Smoking problem, no money to investigate
Started getting warm recently - mechanic says could be the radiator - (well it may be but then again???)
We haven't used it much in the last few years - (Hmmmm..... I wonder why)
Its a diesel and I accidently put some petrol in it, now it smokes a bit but is clearing - (go on pull the other one)

etc etc -------------- STAY FAR AWAY.

WHITE/GREY SMOKE = STEAM = BLOWN GASKET/CRACKED HEAD = STAY AWAYYYYY!!!

(short puffs of white smoke on a diesel can also be a fuel problem most typically caused by an injector pump timing issue. Whilst not serious it does indicate lack of maintenance as more than likely the timing belt has either stretched or jumped a tooth. Poor maintenance is more than likely harboring other unseen nasties as well.)

BLUE SMOKE = OIL = KNACKERED RINGS = STAY AWAY (THIS GOES FOR ALL CARS)

Black smoke = a fuel rich problem, not so serious BUT sometimes can come from oil/fuel that has bypassed either the turbo or vacuum pump which is a little more serious.

Unless you are a mechanic and know how to fix these DO NOT BUY WITHOUT TEST DRIVING FIRST.

Always establish how long the person has had the car. No one buys a car specifically to keep it a few months. Giving the benefit of the doubt it could be they have found the car difficult to handle as they are big, but in my opinion they would have figured this out when they bought it. My bet would be that the individual has or is having a serious problem.

ALWAYS ASK THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS

1. Have you had or are you having any overheating issues
2. Do you have ANY reason to suspect a blown head gasket
3. Does the car use water
4. Does the car create ANY smoke when starting and running and if so what colour.

NOTE : - If the seller does not respond they have something to hide. If they are vague they are hiding something. You may be able to use their response in a court of law so don't delete it. Forward it to your personal mail box so it does not get deleted by Ebay's standard 20 days deletion process. Keep all communication with the seller this way. If you can prove they were less than honest you may be able to get some recompense.

Note : - just because your mate has had one for +-2 years and has had no issues does not mean there are no issues. You need to be realistic and factor in a number of issues such as regularity of use, total mileage, work done previously that the current owner is not aware of etc etc. One person and their experience does not constitute a blanket stamp of approval. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, the Internet is a wonderful tool. Base any advice, including that given within this guide, on the persons knowledge, their mechanical experience and above all their MOTIVATION.

Vehicle tests

Take someone with you and whilst you start the car ask them to see what comes out the exhaust. Any water within the first few seconds say - ADIOS AMIGO and WALK AWAY. Condensation is normal after a few minutes but immediate water is more than likely water that has seeped into the combustion chamber from a blown gasket/cracked head. NOTE: - This only holds true if the car is being started from absolute cold. If it had previously been started it is entirely possible that previous condensation is still in the pipe. Move on to next checks below.

If as you try and start the car the engine seemingly locks up - WALK AWAY - there is water in a place it REALLY shouldn't be.

If the seller won't let you drive it WALK AWAY

Open the radiator cap and look inside(PLEASE ONLY DO THIS WHEN THE ENGINE IS COLD !!!!!!!!). Any signs of oil shimmering on top of the water WALK AWAY

Take the car for at least a 20 mile test drive on the motor way and watch the temp gauge. If it goes anything over half WALK AWAY. NOW also be careful, a common trick to hide a problem is to remove the Thermostat. This causes overcooling so if the car takes anything more than a couple of miles to reach operating temp chances are this has been done. You do need to take cognisance of the weather of course, the colder the day the longer the car will take to warm up. Once at the correct temp however it will sit at just below the 9 o'clock position. Any lower then suspect something may be amiss.

Once you come back from your drive get your friend/partner/assistant to once again stand behind the car. Rev the motor to around 3500rpm (2500rpm on a diesel) and keep it there for around 15 secs then floor it for a second or two. If white, blue or if it is a diesel copious black smoke comes out walk away. Diesels will emit some black smoke but it should not be excessive (in other words it shouldn't look like a military smoke screen)

Open the bonnet and listen for any hissing or steam escaping from the expansion bottle. If this is happening there is a blown head gasket or cracked head. This is caused by combustion gasses enteriing the water jacket via the gasket/head and overpressurising the water jacket.

Lift the passenger seat (It is hinged and underneath is the engine bay inspection cover. These are mid-engined cars) , and take off the oil filler cap. If it has a creamy looking substance in it WALK AWAY. Take out the dipstick and see what colour the oil is on this. Again if any sign of a milky white appearance = trouble, this is water mixed with oil. Water should NEVER be present in the oil.

If the car is an automatic, which most are, take out the oil transmission dipstick whilst you have the passenger seat up. Put some of the oil from the end of the dipstick on the some white cloth or on your finger. It should be a bright red colour if it is dark red the box is well overdue for a service. If it is brown or black, suspect major issues with the box.

Even if you have already bought it off Ebay and it has any of these symptoms WALK AWAY. Rather get a bad feedback than be lumbered with a repair bill that can be up to £2000. If any of these symptoms exist then the seller has not been honest and so you can leave bad feedback in return.

DO NOT GET SUCKERED IN BY MISLEADING Q&A's ON THE LISTING WHERE SOMEONE SUPPOSEDLY WRITES TO THE SELLER TELLING THEM HOW GREAT THE DIESEL ENGINES ARE. IT IS VERY EASY TO GET A FRIEND TO DO THIS.

IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT YOU WILL GET AWAY WITH ONLY A HEAD GASKET CHANGE ON THE DIESELS. IF THE GASKET HAS GONE BE 99.9999% SURE SO TOO HAS THE HEAD. BE CAREFUL AS WELL OF PEOPLE THAT PUT SPECIAL ADDITIVES IN THE RADIATOR TO "CURE" THE PROBLEM. THIS IS VERY SHORT TERM!!!!!! IF THE COOLANT DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT, CHANCES ARE IT ISN'T.

IF the head has cracked or gasket blown DEPENDING on how far the owner drove with it like this will depend ON WHAT ELSE has been damaged. Don't be SURPRISED to find you need a whole new engine. OH BUT WAIT, whilst there are lots of these on Ebay, none of them are new so chances are you are going to be doing the whole process again pretty soon.


TAKE NOTE : - Positive guides on the imports are typically written by those who are making a living out of importing and selling these vehicles. Take anything they say with a pinch of salt. Of course they will want to convince you that they are the best thing since sliced bread as this is how they make their money. They WILL NOT be with you when you and your family are stuck on the side of the motorway with a car bellowing smoke and steam. I speak from first hand experience.

Do an extensive search on the Internet with respect to head problems/cracked heads on the Estima imports and you will see what I mean.

The ESTIMA has the same body as the UK Previa.
The Lucida and Emina have a slightly narrower body but still look the same, The narrower (-110mm) body is a result of a vehicle taxation band scheme in Japan.

FINAL POINTS ---------

1. If considering one of the diesel models do so with CAUTION. All research suggests that with these it is not a case of if the head will crack but rather when. The allure of good diesel consumption will soon disappear when you find out how much the repair bill will be.

2. The first generation of these cars, which is what this guide is about, were only manufactured between 1990 - 2000. These are distinct because the engine is underneath the driver/passengers seat. DO NOT believe sellers that claim these models are 2001 and up. What they are talking about is the date the car was imported into the UK.

3. The Imported Estima/Lucida/Emina are all purchased at large auctions in Japan. Many (NOT ALL) are being sold off because they have failed the Japanese equivalent of our MOT (called the "shaken test") and can no longer be driven on their roads. What does this tell you??

4. These supposedly have very low mileages, refer back to the point above and see if this makes sense to you. Also look at the various Estima forums out there and you will see that these cars are suffering failures associated with very high mileages, a prime example being the secondary aux shaft bushes. Now bear in mind that the UK built Previa  uses the exact same bushes, phone any Toyota UK agent and ask them how regularly they change these on a UK spec Previa. When you consider that the average Previa has done well over 100,000Miles (160,000Kms) you will be surprised at how few if any Toyota report to having done. Then compare this bit of info with the claims that the Estima imports have only done +-60,000 Miles......hmmmmm?????

NOTE : - There are organisations that claim to "warrant" the mileages on these vehicles. From my own research (when I was considering buying an import) these "warranties" are based on the recorded mileage of the vehicle when it arrived at the auction house. There does not seem to be any way to warrant if it was changed before it got there. Hence why it is a "warranty" not a "guarantee". Once again you take your chances believing the supplied information.

5. Ask yourself the question, if these cars are so good and have such low mileage how is it the Japs are getting shod of them. Wake up and smell the Dilly Weed. If someone is selling the car for say £3999 after all the costs incurred after shipping, import duty, taxation, vehicle compliance testing etc and they are still making a profit how much do you think they bought it for ?????? ......a few hundred perhaps.

6. You can buy a second generation Previa 2001 + for £5500 and up. Why would you want to pay close to this for something that is a damn site older and comes with a high probability of giving expensive trouble.
 
7. The Petrol model of either the UK spec Previa or the Imported Estima (if you can find one) is far more reliable. Yes they still have a potential issue with blown head gaskets, however if the engine coolant has been changed as per manufacturers guidance these have been known to go for over 200K miles without an issue. HOWEVER with cars of this age you have NO way of knowing if and how regularly this has been done, so you are still taking a gamble. That said changing a head gasket is a damn sight cheaper than replacing an entire head and as stated at the beginning this is NOT a common occurance on the petrols.

8. Just a note on what I mentioned in the point above. Finding a Petrol version of the imported Estima is very very rare. Most are diesel, it seems the Japs want to get rid of the diesel versions but are happy to keep the petrol versions. Remember what I have said previously ...THE DIESELS are notorious for cracking cylinder heads. This in my opinion should be even further food for thought.

Have a look at the www.estimaownersclub.co.uk. Here you have an interesting group of people that swear by the virtues of these cars and yet if you delve into the forum and look at the help/repair sections you will see for yourself how many are suffering with overheating problems, cracked cylinder heads etc etc. Then take a look at www.previaowners.co.uk and see how quiet it is in comparison with regard to these issues, only one or two threads on head gasket issues.

You may well hear/read people saying that the ESTIMA/LUCIDA/EMINA's don't suffer cracked heads anymore than any other car-------THIS IS ABSOLUTE BULLS**T. Phone around the scrap yards and see what they have to say with regard to why these cars generally end up with them!!!!

If a seller claims that this info is a lot of c**p ask them to give you, IN WRITING, a free 2 year money back guarantee on a head AND head gasket failure, nothing else just these items. After all if the info is a lot of c**p why wouldn't they agree??????? I am 110% convinced you will see backpedaling worthy of a circus act :-)

If you know what you are letting yourself in for then at least you can set aside budget when the inevitable occurs. I own a Previa and even though I have put an enormous amount of work into it, I believe she has been worth it as she really drives well. However she requires constant maintenance and I am fortunate that I am able to do all of this myself. The Estima's look lovely and are a higher spec than the Previa's with cooler boxes, curtains, front and rear air con etc, but personally I wouldn't touch a diesel one with a barge pole.  All the fancy gadgets in the world won't help you on the roadside. I have said it before and will say it again now if you buy the diesel version there is an extremely good chance that the head WILL crack. All the money you save running it on vegetable oil (if that is the reason you want a diesel) will soon be lost on repair bills.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !!!!!!!!!------ THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

P.S. Here is an example I found whilst looking through the feedback of one of the dealers who seems to regularly sell the imported diesel models. I contacted the person who left the feedback to ask if I could include his name and he kindly agreed.

Initial Feedback
Super Purchase, Very Happy Customer, Recomended Ebayer TNX A+++++

Follow-up  by kstar_007: Needed a complete Engine after 2mths of having. DONT BUY OFF THIS SELLER

Some links from the estimaownersclub.co.uk, just a few examples of folk who found out too late they had bought a pile of c**p. Copy and paste the links into your browser.

http://www.estimaownersclub.org/community/index.php/topic,28000.0.html

http://www.estimaownersclub.org/community/index.php/topic,28013.0.html

http://www.estimaownersclub.org/community/index.php/topic,27967.0.html


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